Israel-Greece ties ‘not impacted’ by Turkey

The relationship between Greece and Israel remains strategic and will not be affected by Israel’s ongoing efforts to normalize ties with Turkey, the new Israeli ambassador in Athens, Noam Katz, tells Kathimerini in his first interview since assuming his post in the Greek capital.

He adds that new initiatives will follow the return to power of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, one of the chief architects of the Greek-Israeli partnership.

Greece has proven resilient in its relationship with Israel, since all our governments, from leftist to conservative, have supported our strategic partnership with Israel. Is it the same for Israel?

Yes. The relationship from the Israeli perspective is strategic. We had some changes in our government. We had some instability. But our relations continue to be strong. Think about the last weeks. We had the visit of the minister of defense, the visit of the secretary-general of the ministry. The number of delegations coming from Greece to Israel and from Israel to Greece was the record number when I compared it with the European countries and the US together. Our relations are also strong in other fields, not only the ones led by others. We are expecting a new government in Israel in the next few days. This government will be committed to building the relationship with Greece. The Israeli PM-designate was the architect from the Israeli side on reconstructing the relationship with Greece. That will be part of his new agenda as PM. I hope we will be able to see some joint activities and meetings with the new government.

There is the variable geometry of trilaterals. One of them is the 3+1 with the US. Some say there are delays. Do you believe the work of the 3+1 will resume?

Yes. The trilateral collaboration is very important to us. The 3+1 is of value to us. Yes, there may have been some delays. Some of it is because we had some changes. But I remind you that not more than a month ago we had a 3+1 meeting in Israel which dealt with cyber defense focusing on shipping, infrastructure and energy. We expect more meetings and synergies.

How will the Israel-Turkey rapprochement influence the Israel-Greece relationship?

We must look at it in two different ways. First of all our relations with Greece are strong and are not going to be impacted by our relationship with Turkey in a way that will erode our strategic relations. We said that loud and clear to the Turks. Our minister of defense said it publicly. Turkey is an important country in the region. We have some common challenges, some of which are of strategic importance. Combating terrorism, trade relations, tourism and a lot of joint things that are happening between the two societies. It is not going to be at the expense of Greece. We also believe in diplomacy. And, we believe, as you are trying to solve your issues with Turkey through dialogue and diplomacy, we are doing the same. We are moving slowly toward dialogue with the Turks to discuss outstanding issues. The geometries are important because they bring more dialogue and stability and they create more avenues for cooperation.

‘Our relationship with Greece is not that of buyers and sellers. It is based on ongoing long-term cooperation’

Your minister of defense said that Israel can be a bridge of dialogue and cooperation. Does this mean something specific or is it a general position?

I think that if we can contribute to something like this, we would be more than happy to do it. I won’t mention that is concrete, that is on the table now. But I can say that dialogue is important. We have a striking example which is our agreement with Lebanon. We signed an agreement with a country that legally speaking we are in a state of war with. Being able to exercise diplomacy, direct or indirect, with facilitations by the US and France, we came to an agreement that is for the benefit of both countries, without solving the big issues. The big issues are still there.

Greece and Israel have that unique feature of huge and energetic diasporas. There were meetings of our lobbies in Athens in recent days. Do our diasporas promote better relations between our two countries too?

Yes. We are blessed in a way, Greece and Israel, to have diasporas connected to their mother states. The people of our diasporas have a unique and special connection to the homeland. They help both our countries to position themselves, to create bridges with the societies they are living in. I think it’s something that it is unique and we should enjoy the benefits.

Greece and Israel have very close defense, economic and cultural ties. There is cooperation in all of these, but could we do better?

We have a few drivers for our bilateral relations. Some are economic, some are energy and security. I think we should be content but it is our responsibility that it will continue to grow. Our relationship with Greece is not that of buyers and sellers. It is based on ongoing long-term cooperation. When you think about a project like Kalamata, a project for 20 years ahead, it’s something solid that’s working and helping to cement further cooperation. We have joint training, sharing best practices and of course procurement. We should never be satisfied with our economic cooperation. When we think about Greece’s policy to become an energy gateway for Europe, all forms of energy, Israel is a natural partner not only because we have gas but we are very strong in climate technology, green energy technologies that can be incorporated with Greek companies and the Greek agenda.

On energy, there is that never-ending discussion about the EastMed pipeline. Do you think it can happen, or are there other ways for energy to reach European markets?

On a government level, Israel, Greece, Cyprus, we are fully committed and we haven’t backed an inch from our commitment. When you think about EastMed per se, it is something that has to be explored by those who will execute it. And here we go to the private sector. They have to think of the viability of the project. In the meanwhile we have to think about the urgent needs of today because of the war in Ukraine. The crisis cut around 140 billion cubic meters of gas supply to Europe and they need to find alternatives. In this way Israel already plays a role. We have started to produce more from our own reservoir and we are exporting it. The only way to export it today from our part of the world is via Egypt, in the form of liquefied natural gas. We can use this infrastructure to supply more energy to Egypt and Jordan and from there to Europe. It is just a short-term solution. It is only a portion of what Europe needs. We are exporting altogether only 10 bcm. This goes to the internal use of Egypt and Jordan. We are developing more fields.

We see big waves of tourism from Israel in the wintertime – not just in the summer – so has Greece become a habit for Israelis?

Fifteen years ago Greece was on the map of Israeli tourism. Most of our close-range tourists went to Turkey. When we had the conflict emerging with Turkey the number of Israeli tourists heading to Turkey was dramatically reduced. And Israelis discovered Greece. After two to three, the number of Israeli tourists visiting Turkey came back to the pre-crisis number. But the people that discovered Greece did not abandon Greece. The number is increasing every year. Israeli tourists do not visit once a year. My daughter was here four times before I became ambassador. Also Israeli tourists leave more money than average tourists that come from other countries. Shopping is part of it, wherever we go. There is also the business dimension. It brought Israelis to invest in tourism in Greece, mainly in the hotel industry and leisure time industry. The second is the social aspect. Tourism in Greece is a strong social agent to bring our countries together. We like Greek music, Greek food, Greek culture. You will hear Greek music everywhere.

There has been news about the regime in Iran taking some decisions on abolishing part of its oppressive police. Is this a sign of a genuine impetus for change or is it just some trick of the regime to save face?

Allow me to say that the Middle East is changing. In the battle between the radical forces and moderate and pragmatic forces, the moderates are winning. Our agreements with our neighbors and recently the Abraham Accords are bringing a different atmosphere of cooperation, more stability and more strategic stability. It is seen in commerce, in strategic cooperation, people to people. The instability and the radical forces are led by the Ayatollah regime in Tehran. It is an engine of instability. There was an attempt to attack Israeli targets in Istanbul. That was prevented through intelligence and security cooperation between us and Turkey. This is happening all around. And Iran became an engine of instability not only in our region. You see them supplying Russia with UAV capabilities. This current Iranian regime is a threat. Beside the hegemonic ambition of this regime, it is the nuclear ambition of this regime. Add to that the oppressive nature of this regime. There is nothing between our two peoples to develop relations. Except of a very radical religious ideology of the regime in Tehran. It has a lot of capability to repress its people. I hope that one day all this will change. But I cannot see it in the near future.

From the Israeli point of view how does the war in Ukraine change the security architecture, in our region too?

No doubt that the war in Ukraine is a game changer in international relations and geostrategic realities. It didn’t change the system, it highlighted the need for changing things. We understand that security is not something that belongs to the past. It belongs to the future also. Countries have invested in security and defense capabilities. On this conflict Israel stands very clearly with the support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. We send humanitarian assistance. We were one of the first to send humanitarian assistance. Israeli society was mobilized as well and sent support. This week we will send generators. I don’t see the end of the conflict in the next few weeks or the very near future. But I hope we will at some point find an end to the war.