Scientist of world history talks about geography’s role for Greece
This scientist has been described as a geographer of world history who deciphers the mosaic of human societies and their relationship with the environment: Jared Diamond, professor of geography at the University of California, Los Angeles, talks to Kathimerini in one of his rare interviews and discusses concepts of global anthropogeography. How is national identity interpreted? What is the importance of geographic luck when it comes to the development of Greece? And how can the neglect or destruction of a nation’s cultural heritage lead to its collapse?
A Pulitzer Prize winner with some of the greatest books on anthropological studies, such as “Guns, Germs and Steel” and “Upheaval” in his authorial quiver, Professor Diamond offers Kathimerini readers a global picture of the Greek nation’s contribution to European sovereignty, while explaining how populist movements and the public’s “low expectations” of their politicians are an outgrowth of the “nonsense” prevailing in society.
Wars tend to stimulate national spirit and bring the concept of national identity to the forefront of debate. In your experience, how do you define national identity and why do people feel the need to own an identity and be part of a culture?
By “national identity,” I mean all of those features, including cultural, historical and geological features, that a people share, that make them distinctive and different from other people, and of which they are proud. “National identity” features in my book “Upheaval.” “National identity” motivates individuals sharing that identity – e.g. all of you Greeks, or all of us Americans – to cooperate with each other, and to unite in resisting would-be conquerors. For you Greeks, your national identity involves still speaking a language derived from the language sung by Homer. It involves pride in having created much of the world’s greatest literature, art and architecture. Often, pride and national identity are based on military achievements, both recent achievements and those of the distant past. Examples of pride based on military achievements include, for us Americans, pride based on our Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution. For my British friends, pride based on the Battle of Britain, when Britain stood alone and defeated the Luftwaffe and prevented a Nazi conquest of Britain. And for you Greeks, pride that includes memories of Marathon, Thermopylae, Xenophon’s Anabasis, and Alexander’s incredible conquest not only of the mighty Persian Empire but also of most of the civilized world all the way east to the Indus Valley.
The concept of “geographic luck” is exemplified in the Mediterranean region, with its diverse landscapes and historical importance. How do you see the geography of Greece influencing its historical trajectory? And do you think contemporary geopolitical dynamics in the region are influenced by historical legacies?
Seventy years ago, when I was in school and spent three years studying Greek language and history, I remember my Greek teacher explaining to me the importance of the geography of Greece for Greek history! Greek geography also plays a big role in my book “Guns, Germs and Steel.” Here are five ways in which the geography of Greece was historically important: First, Greece, in the southeast corner of Europe, and immediately to the west of the Fertile Crescent, where civilization began, constituted the port of entry for civilization into Europe. Second, through Greece passed Fertile Crescent agriculture, writing, metal tools, state government, and the other ingredients of civilization. Third, Greece, like the Fertile Crescent, enjoys a Mediterranean climate, ideal for the development of the world’s first agriculture. Fourth, Greece lies on the Mediterranean Sea, is fragmented and indented by water, and was historically better connected by water than by land. That made Greeks great ancient seafarers. And fifth, Greece is fragmented not only by water, but also by mountains, islands and peninsulas. Hence Greece remained fragmented into city-states for thousands of years after the unification of Egypt and of Anatolia: in fact, until Alexander of Macedon finally succeeded in unifying Greece. The fragmented geography and political disunity of Greece made it impossible for a long time for Greek tyrants to exercise control: A dissident thinker could just leave a city-state whose tyrant he disliked and could move to another city-state. That’s a major reason for the flourishing of ancient Greek thought and creativity. Greece does not have deep rich soil, in contrast to more northern parts of Europe. That’s why ultimately Rome conquered Greece, and why Europe to the west of Greece became politically dominant.
Jared Diamond, professor of geography at the University of California, Los Angeles, speaks to Kathimerini and discusses concepts of global anthropo-geography
Through your many years of research and your extensive travels, I would like to ask you how the development of the arts, philosophy and technical professions in Greece contributed to the accelerated development of Europe and its predominance over other continents?
If one wanted to summarize 12,000 years of ancient history into a single sentence, that single long sentence would be: Power arose in the Fertile Crescent of Southwest Asia 12,000 years ago with the origins there of agriculture, and gradually shifted westwards from the Tigris and Euphrates to Anatolia, to Greece, to Italy, to Spain, and finally to Britain. Greece inherited Fertile Crescent agriculture, metal tools and writing, and state government, and transmitted them to Western Europe, which eventually conquered the world. Read all about it in my book “Guns, Germs and Steel”!
Professor Diamond, Greece, Italy and many other nations went through the “Clashing Rocks” of economic crises. In your work “Upheaval,” you compare national crises with personal crises. What led you to this interpretation and how a nation can deal with a crisis?
Many nations experience national crises, when it becomes clear that previous national methods of coping are no longer working – such as the recent economic crisis in Greece, the current political crisis in the US, the Red Terror of 1968 in Germany and Italy, and many other examples. Many people – indeed, most of us – experience personal crises, when it becomes clear to us as individuals that our previous methods of coping are no longer working – such as the crises associated with the breakdown of a marriage or close relationship, the death of a loved one, or a financial or job setback. It should be mentioned that, both for nations and for people, a necessary first step is to acknowledge that there is a crisis. If a country or a person refuses to acknowledge a crisis or is blind to it, there can be no progress towards a solution. A necessary second step is to accept responsibility for making changes that could resolve the crisis. A country or a person that just blames the crisis on others and will not take responsibility for solving the crisis will not make progress. Of course, there are obvious differences between nations and people! But the dozen parallels between outcomes of national crises and of personal crises are striking. They formed the basis of my book “Upheaval,” which examined outcomes of modern national crises in half a dozen countries.
You frequently mention the importance of preserving heritage. I want to highlight the Parthenon Marbles as an example. How does the neglect or destruction of heritage contribute to the factors that lead to collapse as you described?
National identities are often symbolized by a national monument or treasure. It becomes a painful catastrophe if that monument or treasure is lost. Familiar examples include the theft of the Parthenon Marbles from Greece, and of the Benin Bronzes from the African nation of Benin, by Britain’s Lord Elgin and by British troops, respectively. Those marbles and bronzes are now in British museums, rather than in Greece and Benin, where they belong. The British excuse themselves by saying that Lord Elgin had the right to take the Parthenon Marbles and that British troops had the right to sack the capital of Benin. But how do you think that British people would feel if foreigners carried away Britain’s Magna Carta, the paintings of Turner, London’s clock tower Big Ben, the facade of Canterbury Cathedral, or some other British national treasure?
Given your expertise in societal collapse and resilience, how do you analyze the impact of populist movements and political disruptions, such as Donald Trump or Geert Wilders, on the social fabric and institutions of a nation? And how will Trump’s return affect the geopolitical architecture?
Alas, the United States is not the only country to experience disaster through the decisions of foolish leaders. The United States, Britain and Argentina face potential disasters today through foolish leaders. Even Greece can think of examples within modern Greek history. It is not enough for a country to try to excuse itself by blaming disaster on a foolish leader. Unfortunately, countries are responsible for their leaders, and for leaders’ mistakes, regardless of whether the leader has come to power democratically or by force. That may feel unfair – but it is a sad reality.
